TAM Merger Open Thread
In the effort to make clear that the only thing ISS deals with is not a 5 mph change in the speed limit, I would like to bring up the issue of the proposed merger of Theoretical and Applied Mechanics with the Department of Mechanical and Industrial Engineering. Academic Affairs intends to issue a report on the topic to the senate at the first meeting after Thanksgiving break. We'll have a recommendation and a resolution either supporting or opposing the merger. At this point, I know very little about it except that it's a controversial move, though in the coming week I will obviously be learning more. I'm sure there are people out there who have an opinion on this now, however, and I just wanted to create an open thread to discuss the topic. Who knows, something you say might end up in our final report. Discuss away!
Brian Pierce
Chair, Academic Affairs
Brian Pierce
Chair, Academic Affairs
posted by Illinois Student Senate | 12:31 AM
9 Comments:
I will refer this one to John Yu and his consituents
I'm going to trust Tom Berfield's judgment on this one. I think it's most appropriate for ISS to take the position of the students in TAM absent a compelling reason not to. It's a profound statement that the merger led to several faculty members leaving. Personally, I'm skeptical of the merger, but I'm looking forward to hearing everyone elses thoughts on the matter.
I would like to know if there are any cost savings associated with the merger. I hear there are none. If that is the case, I cannot see a reason for it.
Hassen Al-Shawaf
I think it's a no-brainer to oppose the merger. The TAM students are clearly not in favor of it, and from a general student perspective it just seems sketchy. It seems like a fairly large change for an interim dean to make. I personally suspect the interim dean's intentions. I would recommend the ISS immediately bring up a resolution opposing the merger.
Allan Niemerg
I am not a student in the College of Engineering and have never taken a TAM course; however, I am a member of the Educational Policy UC Senate Committee and we have discussed this issue with Administrators (proposing this legislation, as well as department heads that vehemently oppose it).
My interpretation of this legislation:
Historically TAM was vital because it focused specifically on the study of theoretical mathematics which is also the basic core of knowledge in many fields of engineering, most specifically Mechanical Engineering. Educational requirements have changed and many engineering students are required to know TAM material as a basic element of their field, which the College has said could best be addressed department by department. The areas of study in advanced mechanics can better be served in ME for several reasons. As Josh stated earlier, several faculty members have either moved to ME or left the University completely in anticipation of the merger. If the merger didn’t pass, we would be holding onto a department that didn’t have enough faulty members to staff their classes. Over the years many areas of TAM research have been moved to the ME department. The ME and TAM departments have a lot in common and many of their grad students share take similar classes, according to the department head of ME.
I understand that students fear the merger and I am open to student discussion on the topic, in fact, I feel I can’t accurately represent the student interests at the EdPol meetings without input. There will be a Town hall meeting on December 7th and I encourage anyone who has concerns or wants to learn more to attend.
P.S My interpretation of this merger is open to change and I will post any new findings/interpretations. I encourage anyone to try to change my mind. :)
Maybe if Josh and Joe showed up to the Educational Policy meetings once in a while they could form their own opinions.
As a TAM graduate student, please allow me to elaborate on some of the very valid points brought up in the discussion taking place on this blog. [Note that I had originally planned to respond to more, but this post is growing fast and it is already late. Let me post now reagarding financial issues and add more later. I will also send the link of this blog to other students in TAM.]
First on the matter of cost savings.
The TAM ressources at present consist of 5 office staff (http://www.tam.uiuc.edu/directory/staff/office_staff.html), 3 machinists a network administrator and a web developper (http://www.tam.uiuc.edu/directory/staff/tech_staff.html).
The office staff handle everything from the undergraduate and graduate programs to alumni relations as well as the need of the faculty. In a department with normally in excess of 15 faculty members and more than 60 graduate students, this number is quite reasonnable, at least from my previous experiences at other schools. In the case of a merger, workers protected by their unions will either be employed by the new department or reaffected somewhere else in the university. I am quite sure this is the case of the 5 office staff and 3 machinists. The network administrator is actually a shared ressource with at least one other department, so he could not be simply fired in the case of a merger. I have no information with regards to the web developper. This leaves us with a possible staff reduction of 1. This assumes all the staff in the mechanical engineering (MIE) department would remain. Counting that many are most probably protected by union, it is doubtful any staff reduction would be possible from the MIE side.
All other expenses from TAM are related to coursework, research, students, etc. A merger of the departments would only result in a budget savings if the size of the new department is less than the combined size of the present separate TAM and MIE, i.e. if the combined department has less professors and students. A point could be made that the new department itself would utilize less ressources, but this would simply be a matter of accounting since unionized workers can only be reaffected and not simply fired for financial reasons. The merger proposal also states explicitely that no employee will lose its job as the result of the merger.
Charles Basenga Kiyanda
TAM PhD Student
Before I call it a day, I would like to comment on similarities and dissimilarities between TAM and MIE students.
A merger between the TAM and MIE departments would mean that recruitment would now be done by a single department. The dean's position (as expressed in the merger proposal. You can find a copy of the merger proposal here) is that a merger would strengthen this new department in the area of mechanics. I contend that the merger would weaken the college.
First, mechanics and mechanical engineering are not the same thing. It is entirely true that mechanics (as pointed out by Amanda in her post) is at the core of many disciplines of engineering, for example:
-aerospace engineering
-civil engineering
-mechanical engineering
As an analogy, consider that modern physics (relativity, quantum mechanics, etc...) as studied in the UIUC dept. of physics is at the core of many engineering and science disciplines:
-electrical engineering
-chemistry
-computer engineering (hardware design, not computer science, which is typically more software and algorithm design, which draws almost exclusively on mathematics)
No one in its right mind would consider merging the departments of physics and electrical engineering to strengthen the position of the college in the area of modern physics. Physics and electrical engineering are considered as two very distinct entities. One deals with fundamental laws, the other with applications. The same is true of mechanics and mechanical engineering. Questions that would be asked in mechanics are:
-How do combustible matierials burn at supersonic speed?
-How does turbulence decay?
-How do cracks propagate in solid materials?
Questions of mechanical engineering could be?
-How does the efficiency of a combustion engine change when the combustion is turbulent instead of laminar? (automotive engineering)
-Can I reduce the emission of pollutants from burning trash by using fluidized bed combustors? [environmental engineering]
-Can plastic parts be cast with less defects, like air bubbles? [production, modling,...]
The point is that while everyone in mechanical engineering deals with things that are governed by mechanics (like Newton's second law, which some of you might have studied), the emphasis is typically on technological applications. Tam doesn't study 'how to use solutions of Newton's second law' but rather asks 'what are the solutions of newton's second law?' Our analogy with physics still stands. Physics doesn't deal with 'how to use quantum mechanics', that is the realm of electrical engineering, physics deals with 'what are the solutions of quantum mechanics? How do quarks and electrons behave in different circumstances?' Obviously, in both cases, the situation is not purely black and white. Some people fit clearly the 'mechanical engineering' type I have described while some fit particularly well the 'TAM' type. Some are somewhere in between. Researchers do have particular interests and this still transpires somewhat in their research. Is this cause to merge? I don't think so. There are people in physics department who think transistors are really cool, namely because every computer has billions of these things inside. Yet, they study more fundamental concepts [how do electrons behave when such and such happens] rather than more application-driven concepts [how do I make the transistor smaller so I can fit more on a chip? or How do I maximize heat transfer so that I can reduce the size of the transistor?]. The only difference between the physic/electrical eng. analogy and the present TAM/MIE situation is that TAM is small. But we've already established and the Dean (based on the merger proposal) seems to agree that merging TAM and MIE would not lead to less cost. At best a marginal reduction in ressources utilization is foreseable. The only question is "Would the merger strengthen the position of the college in the area of mechanics?" Given that the college already has not only a well-structured department that does mechanics but a highly recognized one, I think the merger would be detrimental to the college.
One further difference between TAM and MIE that I must bring up is in the constitution of the student body. Most graduate degrees granted by the MIE department are MS degrees
while most graduate degrees granted by the TAM department are PhD degrees . Incidently, many of the MS degrees recipients presented on the TAM website are current PhD students. This simple statistics shows that the goals of graduate students coming to TAM are different than the goals of graduate students coming to MIE. Again, I wish to stress that I am not trying to set a hierarchy. I am not trying to say that students coming to TAM are necessarily better because they want a PhD. I'm saying that the MIE department attracts students who are, in a larger part, interested in leaving academia and going to industry. TAM attracts more students who wish to stay in academia or do research in industry. I don't believe this merged department can attract the students that come to TAM right now. Where is this new department likely to be listed in national reviews of the different engineering schools? I am ready to bet it will be compared to other mechanical engineering departments. And it better be, otherwise the UIUC college of engineering will find itself effectively without an ME department. It should be noted that already, students who were wanting to go to TAM were either not actively looking at ME departments or actively looking elsewhere (as was my case). Some in fact came to TAM after earning one or more degrees from mechanical engineering departments (and again, this is my case) because TAM is different from ME departments.
So, in summary, I have tried to expose the difference between mechanics and mechanical engineering (in part by comparing it to the difference between physics and electrical engineering), I have tried to show some of the differences between TAM students and MIE students and their ultimate goal. I've also tried to show that prospective TAM students are likely *not* to come to an ME department (or essentially it's equivalent). So what would the situation after the merger be? I believe the situation will be one where the MIE department will have inherited 2 degree programs (undergraduate and graduate) with very little faculty devoted to make these degree programs grow and survive. It will have inherited some graduate students who will finish their degrees, but without the capacity to attract many more. In essence, the ME department will have inherited the programs on paper, but these will be an empty shell with little faculty and student influx due to poor visibility. All of that with no cost savings in day to day operations.
The TAM department as it stands now has a growing enrollment . This growing enrollment continued until 2004 (from 57 grad students in 2001 to 72 in 2004). Enrollment declined slightly for 2005 (from 72 to 67) even after having lost a substantial amount of faculty members. The fact that the TAM department is still strong now, as seen from graduate enrollement, even after the events caused by this merger tells something about the ability of the department to survive and to recover.
Charles Basenga Kiyanda
TAM Graduate Student
DEAR AMANDA,
You mention what the head of Mechanical and Industrial Engineering said. I beg you to be a bit distrustful of authority. What could one expect the head of MIE to say? He wants to get as much out of the carcass of TAM as possible. It is just natural among administrators to try to get as many resources as they can. But trust me, he might have gotten his PhD in TAM, but he is not a mechanician. He is a consumate mechanical engineering person -and he knows quite well what the difference is. It is just that, given his position, he will not tell you what he knows.
By the way, have you thought about the corruption denounced by TAM students in their letters to the Daily Illini? No one has bothered to deny these grave accusations. Can (should) the senate look into them and investigate?
I am very sorry for the anonynous status, but I just cannot afford to post here in any other fashion.
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